Why, oh, why oh why do the keyboard equivalents appear to be diverging when it comes to Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom? What on earth are the Lightroom Wizards trying to accomplish by choosing keyboard commands which have little or nothing to do with Photoshop/ACR?
Decisions like this are arbitrary, at best and stupid at worst.
....rant off...
We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
Keyboard equivalents...RANT warning
:-)
Keyboard equivalents...RANT warning
Might be useful to point out WHICH *******' keyboard shortcuts you seem so upset about?
Well, Jeff, since you put it so eloquently, I'll tell you WHICH '''******* keyboard shortcuts'' cause a certain amount of confusion.
blown highlights
ACR o
LR j
plugged shadows
ACR u
LR j
white balance
ACR i
LR w
crop
ACR c
LR r
And, please, Jeff. Don't SHOUT so much :)
So, which would you change, LR to match CR or CR to match LR?
See, there's a Compare Mode (uses the 'C' key in Lightroom) that ain't there in Camera Raw...so C in Lightroom is already taken so they used 'R'...that's an example.
Camera Raw was launched Feb 2003...it was a model plug-in that when launched hosted in Photoshop or Bridge had total keyboard focus and could pick what keys Thomas wanted.
Lightroom is a workflow app whose single module, Develop, does NOT have total keyboard focus and must share keyboard shortcuts between modules, thus some keys were taken by the application for other functions. As a result, usability testing for Lightroom showed it was useful to pick keyboard shortcuts that make sense from the standpoint of Lightroom workflow and usability-and not merely to pick up the same shortcuts as Camera Raw or Photoshop (unless it could and it made sense).
Add to that ya gotta do regionalization with foreign keyboards and all of a sudden the issue becomes very complex.
So...there ya have it. It wasn't ''Decisions like this are arbitrary, at best and stupid at worst.'' it was, ''well ok, now what do we do?''
They did the best they could. If there are particular keys that really MUST be unified, it would be useful to petition for that...as opposed to having a hissy fit that some are different, ya know?
But, given that LR 1 and Camera Raw 4 have already shipped, that boat has already left the dock. It would have been _MORE_ useful to hear feedback like that LAST YEAR, when there was time to have done something about it.
I mean really, it wasn't an evil plot just to mess with user's heads...(well, ok, Hamburg DID kinda want to do things HIS way)
:~)
%26gt;Jeff Schewe said: (quite a lot)
Message received although sometimes a hissy fit can be therapeutic.
My next rant will ask the question: Why is Lightroom so modal?
Bob...don't get me wrong. If you can make your case for specific changes/fixes, the engineers will listen. It's just that it's a far more complex problem than the guys just wanting to make your life hard!
Modal? You don't like MODAL?
Actually, Lightroom is a lot less ''modal'' in the classic sense than Photoshop. Take the crop tool for example. In PS you are locked out of turning layers on/off but in Lightroom in crop all the other adjustment controls are open. A key command moves you pretty smoothly between modules-well, if your machine is fast :~)
Why can't they just allow us to assign our own keyboard shortcuts...?
Yes, Jeff, LR is too modal. This is a fundamental problem with LR as it's designed to be modal.
This can be a good thing and the concept behind LR's natural modality is fine (web separate from print, for example). However, the inability to separate library from any practical workflow is the current issue. There are some relatively minor things that could be done to make a normal workflow through LR feel much less modal than it does now and I have been, and will continue to advocate such mods to the team where I see them.
%26gt;Rishi J. Sanyal - 07:32am Apr 20, 2007
Why can't they just allow us to assign our own keyboard shortcuts...?
Someday this may be likely. Unlike while the App is still new and in some flux still. Not shure, but I think this was a latecomer to PS, too.
Don
Don Ricklin, MacBook 1.83Ghz Duo 2 Core running 10.4.9 %26amp; Win XP, Pentax *ist D
http://donricklin.blogspot.com/
] Might be useful to point out WHICH *******' keyboard shortcuts you seem so upset about?
Shameful.
I can't believe Adobe permits it's employees to communicate with it's customers in such an insulting and childish fashion.
Jeff is Not an Adobe Employee. He is a Force unto himself.
:)
Don
Don Ricklin, MacBook 1.83Ghz Duo 2 Core running 10.4.9 %26amp; Win XP, Pentax *ist D
http://donricklin.blogspot.com/
] Jeff is Not and Adobe Employee. He is a Force unto himself.
Ah. I thought he was one of the ACR developers for some reason. At any rate the forum moderators should IMO try to maintain at least a minimal level of decorum.
''Ah. I thought he was one of the ACR developers for some reason. At any rate the forum moderators should IMO try to maintain at least a minimal level of decorum. ''
Ian or John...wanna try toning me down?
I thought not :~)
(so much for moderating me)
So, Greg, what part of my answer twisted your shorts?
(and no, much to Adobe's chagrin, I ain't an employee so there's no real control over me ;~)
Which can be a good thing, or not, I suppose but at least I'm entertaining!
(and Bob and I have already been around the block together a time or two-taken in context, I was actually rather mild to poor Bobby)
Besides, just click on my name and you can see my home page...
%26gt;Which can be a good thing, or not, I suppose but at least I'm entertaining!
I think many here would agree with this self assement, including the entertaining. Jeff is also definitely informatve.
Don
Don Ricklin, MacBook 1.83Ghz Duo 2 Core running 10.4.9 %26amp; Win XP, Pentax *ist D
http://donricklin.blogspot.com/
Jeff Schewe wrote: ...(and Bob and I have already been around the block together a time or two-taken in context, I was actually rather mild to poor Bobby)...
I fail to see why someone with your talent has such a childish attitude. One would think that someone who has been around the block a few times would realize the benefits of toning it down.
In short, you are, at times, terminally boorish, infantile and downright insulting.
Bob,
Read this:
Lee Jay, ''Curious Lightroom 1.1 comment'' #15, 30 Mar 2007 10:31 am
Lee jay,
Thanks for the reminder. That is a 'quintessential' Jeff Schewe thread.
Keep it up Jeff.
] Ian or John...wanna try toning me down?
] I thought not :~)
(so much for moderating me)
So, Jeff, you can pretty much say or do anything you want, not matter how insulting or vulgar? And the ''moderators'' are apparently unwilling or unable to do anything about it? Well clearly there's a real problem here (beyond the obvious), from a customer service/relations relations standpoint. Either necessary rules are not in place, or the moderators are not doing their jobs. Perhaps the issue needs some visibility up the chain of command.
''I fail to see why someone with your talent has such a childish attitude.''
What, was it calling you Bobby that wanked your tail?
Jeeesh, you all seem to take yourselves way too seriously...I mean this is a *******' FORUM (ok, can I say ''*******' or is somebody gonna wet their pants) for goodness sake...I mean you STARTED this whole thing ''Bob, Rob, Robert'' by warning everybody of a RANT...it wasn't like you weren't lookin'' for some attention, right? And now you're teed off because of the way I respond to some late attendee to the ''debate''?
Well, whip me with a wet noodle...
(hey, that actually sounds like fun....)
''In short, you are, at times, terminally boorish, infantile and downright insulting.''
Uh huh. . .and your point is?
Avast ye landlubber, you are entering uncharted waters. You know not of what you speak.
Me, I go hard alee.
:)
Don
''Perhaps the issue needs some visibility up the chain of command. ''
Yeah, you can try that too...I know the guys at Adobe PR and legal by first name...(course, I did feel bad when Ian got calls in the middle of the night, sorry Ian).
Greg, I suggest you re-read the entire thread to see the context of the discussion. You got a problem with me? Good luck...I would suggest you lighten your own load a bit. And, I also suggest you re-read the TOS. Point out exactly where I'm in violation...it's pretty open to interpretation.
Feel free to post your comments on
Comments and Announcements about the Forums which is where comments about forum posts are SUPPOSED to be posted...according to the TOS.
Here's
The TOS
Cliff note version:
3. RULES OF CONDUCT
You shall not post on the Forums any User Content which (a) is libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, profane, abusive, harassing or threatening, (b) contains viruses or other contaminating or destructive features, (c) violates the rights of others, such as User Content which infringes any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret or any other intellectual property right or which violates any right of privacy or publicity, (e) violates any laws regarding unfair competition, or (e) otherwise violates any applicable law. You may not post on the Forums any links to any external Internet sites that are obscene or pornographic. You shall not use the Forums for any commercial purpose or to distribute any advertising or solicitation of funds or goods.
Yeah, ok ''irritating'' really should be in the TOS...
:~)
Wow, Jeff. You do a pretty good rant yourself :)
]Yeah, you can try that too...I know the guys at Adobe PR and legal by first name...(course, I did feel bad when Ian got calls in the middle of the night, sorry Ian).
So far I've found clear examples in your posts of abuse, harassment and profanity. And that's in a small sample of posts. I shudder to think what I'd find if I read a significant percentage of them.
We'll see if Adobe listens to their customers. I think I'll go the letter and phone call route, rather than more forum postings, if you don't mind. And thanks for the warning about PR and Legal - I'll need to start over their heads, apparently. Maybe you're right and they don't care about what seems to me to be a very clear and troubling customer service problem. I hope Adobe is better than that.
Bob...you feel abused, harrassed or profaned? You be sure to let me know, ok?
Greg, I thought I remembered you from a while ago...it was in that
NEF + ACR = HOPELESS thread in the Camera Raw forums from about a year ago...you called me a ''condescending snob'' I think?
You got upset because YOU thought I was directing a post toward YOU (I was actually responding to Ray1292 but you seem to take things so personally). In fact, I think in that entire thread, only one post was actually directed at you...and here you go, showing up here, complaining about me again. Talk about a chip...
:~)
Have a nice day...
%26gt;thinking to myself... people are so uptight.
I for one enjoy Jeff's sense of humor and boldness. He's not a sheep and some of us ''creative types'' understand that and appreciate all he does for us behind the scenes. I thoroughly enjoy his messages and how he simply tells it like it is.
I say Jeff for President (of Adobe of course. I'm not crazy!). ;)
Peace.
Arizona, thanks bud...(and may I say you have excellent taste?)
But there's no way I would be able to continue being my old self if I were president of Adobe...what Bruce has to go through is incredible and I think (as a share holder) that's he's done a remarkable job since taking over as CEO...
BTW, Arizona is one of my favorite states to ride/shoot in as well as southern Utah (which is kinda like northern Arizona with Mormons).
We are all here to learn...
Tell it like it is and no one can ever accuse you of being full of ..it.
Jeff, you are full of it....full of invaluable honest educational information, priceless dry wit and light heartedness that frankly a few others in these threads need to try.
Stick to your guns even if it means leaving a bit of road kill (remember me), just make sure you fight with your friends at adobe (as hard as you do with some here, defending them) to get not only all the things YOU need in LR, but all the thing WE need.
Keep on fighting Jeff, for all of us mortals.
Brad
Perth, Aust - been there mate?
'' just make sure you fight with your friends at adobe (as hard as you do with some here, defending them)''
Oh, I do...I've gotten pretty good over the years at pushing their buttons...I try to stay just short of making them want to bash my head in (like Ian and the rest of the internal testers).
And to be honest, it's not so much that I try to ''defend them'' as explain to other people who don't know them, they they really do care, are very talented, and in general do a really excellent job. And that their job ain't easy...
''Perth, Aust - been there mate? ''
Not yet...would love to come down under to both visit AU as well as dive on the Great Barrier Reef and maybe do a MC tour. The nice thing is you guys speak American, with a funny accent!
:~)
(oh, I tend to remember everybody...specially people with the word ''fern'' in their name ;~)
Jeff,
with regards to this:
Lee Jay, ''Curious Lightroom 1.1 comment'' #15, 30 Mar 2007 10:31 am
''tough, there's just WAY too little time and WAY too much to get done''
heh, after reading your blood-presure-popping responses above, you should remember you're only helping to write *******' software, for g-d's sake!
Dan
LOL...
Actually, since Bruce's passing I've quit smoking (I promised Bruce I would), I've had a full physical and my doc has me on blood pressure meds and I haven't felt this good in years...so actually, my whole outlook is much more optimistic than it used to be and my friends tell me I'm a lot mellower.
Course, I still don't suffer idiots or @$$holes gladly. Nor people who take offense where none was intended...you know, like this Greg Zillgitt character showing up out of the blue.
[sorry, couldn't help trying to get at least one zinger in there...just trying to give you more ammo bud!]
Hum...I suppose we'll have to petition for a ''Lightroom Lounge'' forum here...so there's a safe place for the kids to play.
What's up with this personal attack on Jeff?
What do you hope to establish? Changing the ways of a well-established adult? The satisfaction of talking back to someone who you feel has been rude to you? Typically, I find these to be futile efforts.
Mr. Schewe is an asset to the community (at least in my opinion) -- do you really want to push him away?
He was the one dude that could straight up answer my question regarding editing 16-bit gamma corrected images in a linear gamma working space. Were there portions of his responses that may have been construed as curt or rude? Sure. Did I take them that way? Nope. I maintained my politeness %26amp; gratitude, and so did he. 'Tude in, 'tude out', I believe is the way Jeff worded it.
Finally, it can get frustrating from time to time... answering people's questions, dealing with anything from widespread confusion over a rather complex topic all the way to downright head-strong ignorance sometimes seen in these forums. So, consider that Mr. Schewe, like the rest of us, is just human.
The best thing you can do is just maintain a positive, polite, attitude on your end... and, generally, the same will be reflected %26amp; bestowed upon you.
This sort of back-and-forth and personal attack is just not doing anyone any good. It's a big waste of time and personal attacks never make any party involved feel good (in the long run, at least). And, in fact, going back and remembering some of Mr. Schewe's posts, I don't particularly remember him making any PERSONAL attacks on anyone until they were made on him.
Peace,
Rishi
Remember that people typically take offense when someone says something that reflects an insecurity he or she already inherently possesses. So, yeah, try not to take offense where none was intended.
I think people are missing the main point of my posting that thread from the Pixmantec forum. It's the last words, '''tude in, 'tude out.''
If you show up with questions or problems and an attitude that you'd like help getting them fixed, Jeff is more than likely to be kind and helpful. If you show up with the attitude that everyone is an idiot, Jeff will stick a knife in you and start turning.
I have to admit, I tend to be the same way, though my personal threshold level is a few orders of magnitude higher than Jeff's.
Jeff is very knowledgeable and experienced and can be of great help - probably more than anyone else here. If you want his help, all you have to do is ask nicely and be willing to listen and learn. But if you want to be obnoxious, he'll out-obnoxious you in a top-fuel-dragster versus toddler-on-a-tricycle sort of way.
Just remember that everyone who's here is doing it on his/her own time for his/her own reasons. Jeff is a tremendously knowledgeable guy who contributes a heck of a lot and provides lots of free guidance. Take his posts as they are intended: info from an expert who isn't being paid. Kinda makes the jibes worth the cost.
%26gt; do you really want to push him away?
as if that could happen. More likely the otherway around.
Don
Deleted double
Good grief, folks. I admit I should have given more thought before posting my 'rant'.
Now, this thread has gone so far OT that I just wish Ian would kill it.
It's not as bad as a few titles chosen by others, and it does contain a warning, although that also may be a magnet for certain attitudes.
Anyway, maybe to shift back to more meaningful stuff, a bit of memorial if you will, I got a huge shock reading the thread that Jeff linked above. It was begun on March 31st, so I started reading the whole thing, and lo, what was this??? A post under the name of Bruce Fraser. What? How dare anyone spoof him. Anyway, I finally had the presence to note the date, which was, of course, 2006, so it was Bruce in his own words. It was a jarring reminder of who we've lost and how much so many miss his earthly presence.
If Jeff is representative of the new face of Adobe... it's time to start selling or shorting the stock.
Agreed, someone needs to just kill this thread!
Bob, apologies on my part for going so far OT :)
Cheers,
Rishi
%26gt;It was a jarring reminder of who we've lost and how much so many miss his earthly presence.
I had the same reaction when I (re)read that thread, John. He is indeed missed.
''If Jeff is representative of the new face of Adobe...''
Boy, I just don't know about some people's reading skills...several times in this thread it was pointed out by others and myself that I don't; A) represent Adobe, B) work for Adobe and C) fall under the control of Adobe...
And it would be long term foolish to sell Adobe stock short...however since it's near it's all time high, it ain't a great time to be buyig either. It will prolly test the previous high and given that the CS3 launch was pretty darn successfull, prolly go through the previous high. And if it does break the previous high there may be some selling opportunities, but I would hate to be short Adobe stock right now.
And in any case Jeff is not a New Face of Adobe. He's been around from near the beginning of Photoshop not just LR, or so I have heard.
Don
Don Ricklin, MacBook 1.83Ghz Duo 2 Core running 10.4.9 %26amp; Win XP, Pentax *ist D
http://donricklin.blogspot.com/
''He's been around from near the beginning of Photoshop not just LR, or so I have heard. ''
Actually, no. I started using Photoshop 2.0. I wasn't added as an official beta tester till 3 (although I found and proved bugs in 2.5) and an alpha tester since 4.0. But...I've been around Lightroom from before the begining.
:~)
Jeff, I knew it wasn't at the begin of PSCS or before, just not how far back. It's Burt Monroy that's been with that one for so long. :) AFAIK
Only trying to indicate you ain't 'new' to the scene.
Don
Don Ricklin, MacBook 1.83Ghz Duo 2 Core running 10.4.9 %26amp; Win XP, Pentax *ist D
http://donricklin.blogspot.com/
Well done on the smokes Jeff!!!
Gave up on January 8th '07 myself.
:-)
Shhhhh, everybody: the SF Warriors produced a miracle and made the playoffs, beginning now, at precisely 6:47:00 PM on Sunday, April 22, 2007 PDT. It has not happened since + left Chicago. (Ref for those steeped in Illini-speak.)
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