Keywords in Metadata of original...

I have added a number of keywords to a group of photos. I have not exported them. They are still on my hard drive in the original location that I imported them from. I imported with the option to leave the photos where they were. When I go to look at the photos in that original location the metadata information has not changed - no keywords added.

The ones I exported do show the metadata. What do I need to do to get the keywords to show in the Metadata without the need to export them?



Thanks!



Mary Ellen
Keywords in Metadata of original...
Mary, I think what you want is in the library module%26gt; metadata dropdown menu.

There select XMP%26gt; exportXMP Metadata to file.
Keywords in Metadata of original...
You can also set it to write out metadata as you work but I found that slowed things down and I'd rather not rewrite those files constantly anyway, so I don't have it turned on. That setting is in Preferences / File Management tab.

Thank you for your replies. That helped me to determine that without exporting in some fashion I cannot have that date inbedded in the original file. That is curious to me since if I change the name of the file in Lightroom, it changes the original file name. If I delete from Lightroom it can delete the original. Why then, can it not go ahead and embed the data to the original file without exporting?



Can somebody tell me how to let Adobe developers know that we think this would be a good improvement?



Thanks again.



Mary Ellen

You can embed the metadata by either specifying that Lightroom write out metadata as you work OR you can select some images and do

Metadata/ XMP / Export metadata to file.

It can be multiple files.



You do not need to export to get the metadata written. If you want it written immediately, set Preferences / File Management setting that has it write metadata out as you specify it.



I just found that a bit slow and prefer to specify that it write when I want it to. I back up both the images and the database, so I can't (easily) lose the information.

Here is what I did. I picked two new photos. I imported them and added keywords to the metadata. I then followed the Metadata/XMP/Export metadata to file.

I now go to my original photos and the keywords are not there.



What am I missing?



Thanks for your help!

What do you mean when you ''go to [your] original photos''? Are you using an external viewer? Are your images RAW or what? What system are you using?



Until you write to XMP, LR keeps all the metadata inside it's database. When you write to XMP as described by Judith, a sidecar file is created if using RAWs or the data is embeded in the image file if it's JPG or most other formats. If you use another app to view the image file and cannot see the keywords and other metadata, then that app is incompatible.



- Pierre

I am working with jpgs.



My photo is in a folder on my Mac. If I import it to Lightroom, add keywords and export it. Then I when I open the exported file I can see the keywords using the Preview of the Mac. I would like to be able to see the keywords without having to export the photos.



Currently, other changes I make in lightroom (such as changing the name of the photo) are immediately changed in the origianl folder - where I imported the photos from. It would be nice if the keywords could also be seen in that original folder.



Does this make sense?

Scott Kelby says on page 23 or his new Lightroom book, ''Lightroom ...doesn't actually embed the info until your photo leaves Lightroom.''

This tells me I cannot achieve what I'm trying to achieve. Now, can somebody tell me where the appropriate place to let Adobe know that I'd like to see that changed in future versions?

Well, then, he's wrong. LR will embed the info when you tell it to, with the exception of RAW files, where'll it'll wrtie to or create a sidecar file.



Now, your seeing the info in another application is a different matter. Is this an essential part of your workflow?

I had a similar problem of not ''seeing'' the metadata that Lightroom wrote. I discovered that some (most?) metadata viewing programs (including Bridge) cache information so you will not see a change. Bridge has an empty the cache option. Some of my other tools don't. So use Bridge and reset your cache or use a tool you haven't used on this directory or a tool you know will reflect the latest changes to files it may have seen before. Very confusing!



I don't use Bridge often. I just opened it up to find the exact command to reset the cache. In Windows, it's

Tools/Cache/Purge Cache for this folder

Here's what I think Mary Ellen wants to do (and so do I). After adding new or subsequent keywords, I want to see those keywords in another app like Photo Mechanic. The reason being, sometimes I need to copy photos and want the updated IPTC info and to open LR %26amp; export photos takes too much time. But I need to know how to write that info to the original JPEG. (You can do this in iView Media Pro-no problem).

Yes, John is right! Thank you!



I did an experiment and here is what I discovered:

1) I imported a folder of photos and added keywords. I selected all the photos and hit XMP%26gt;Export XMP Metadata to file. I did nothing else. I asked somebody on a different computer to import those photos to their LR. They did and they could see the keywords but only in Lightroom not in another application.



2) I changed my preference setting to automatically update the XMP metadata as I worked. I imported another folder and after at least 30 minutes I had achieved adding keywords to three pictures. (they are not kidding when they say that is slow). I asked somebody on a different computer to import those photos to their LR. They could NOT see the keywords.



Because I have multiple people accessing these photo files and not everybody will be using Lightroom it would be much more efficient if they could see the metadata changes as I work without my needing to stop and export the folders. Additionally, it is not desirable to me to have to totally recreate the contents of my library by exporting each folder of photos. At present I have 130,000 plus photos in Lightroom. To export all of those folder by folder is an overwhelming task. Given that I can see the keywords in the photo from my other app (preview on the Mac) if I have exported the photos, it is desirable to me to be able to see that same information without the step of having the photos exported from LR.



If it matters I'm using this hardware: 2.33Ghz Core 2 Duo Macbook pro with 2Gb Ram, etc

%26gt; 2) I changed my preference setting to automatically update the XMP metadata as I worked. I imported another folder and after at least 30 minutes I had achieved adding keywords to three pictures. (they are not kidding when they say that is slow). I asked somebody on a different computer to import those photos to their LR. They could NOT see the keywords.



Well, they should have been able to. Did they not get the sidecars or was it still updating the xmp data when they imported?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Lee, but the sidecar data is only relevant with RAW images and I'm only talking about JPEGS at this point (and I assume Mary Ellen is, too). I like the fact that I can work on a catalog off line. I have images in many folders shot by country. As I go back and add keywords, I may work on several countries at a time. I want to then be able to connect back to my online database, update the information (which it will do in LR) but must also be able to have those keywords attachedd to the JPEGS, so they can be seen by either Photo Mechanic or iView Media Pro. I have clients that look at my images using their iView reader and then put their pics in a notepad which they can e-mail me %26amp; I can get the images they need. But it depends on their being able to see those keywords. If LR had a ''catalog reader for clients'', that would be great!



I don't want to have to export photos just because I added keywords. Besides, I don't think LR will export to multiple folders (back to from whence they originally came).

%26gt; Correct me if I'm wrong, Lee, but the sidecar data is only relevant with RAW images and I'm only talking about JPEGS at this point (and I assume Mary Ellen is, too).



The sidecar information is embedded into the JPEGs.



I don't know about those other applications, but I can see the LR-embedded keywords in Elements, I think. I don't use keywords much, but I think I remember testing that.

I can add a key word in LR and iView Media Pro will read it, but Photo Mechanic will not.

If I add the keyword in iView, LR will NOT read it.

Photo Mechanic and iView Media Pro work well together in regards to reading each other's keywords. ALL of these programs should exchange this IPTC data freely without having to export images.

I was hoping that LR would be my one stop shop in regards to rating, organizing, keywording and cataloging large number of images. Any thoughts?

When you export XMP metadata to jpg file (or export jpg with full metadata), then LR writes ''keywords'' into IPTC section (using Keywords tag) and into XMP section (using Subject tag).

Such behaviour (writing in both sections) should guarantee (I suppose) every app should be able to find ''keywords''.



Let's assume we used another tool for jpg keywording. In this case LR will recognize keywords only if they have been written into IPTC section. If keywords are in XMP section only (tag Subject used), then LR won't recognize them. If keywords are in both sections, only those from IPTC will be recognized by LR.



Bogdan

I am absolutely and totally stymied since I thought I understood this. At this point with new pictures taken with a camera, I can read the IPTC data written by Lightroom ONLY in Adobe products. I have like 6 other programs that read metadata and they see nothing that Lightroom writes for THESE PICTURES.



I now have three classes of images, at least.



1) Scanned images where I wrote the ''capture date'' and ''digitized date'' in EXIF plus some IPTC data with the program exifer. The metadata was imported correctly into Lightroom and still shows in both Lightroom and Exifer, as well as any other metadata viewing program. The metadata that is displayed is that written originally by exifer as well as additional info added in Lightroom.



I don't seem to be able to reproduce this now. Most of these scanned images do not show the LR metadata outside of Adobe products.



2) Scanned images where I wrote the capture date and digitized date and maybe no IPTC data, not sure. Exifer finds no IPTC data in these files but Bridge does.



3) Images from a camera. The metadata in these are only from the camera and Lightroom. Camera metadata is of course visible, but NOTHING shows for IPTC data in any programs except Adobe programs.



I am very tired of this problem since I spent many many hours on it trying to understand the Lightroom capture date problem with scanned images. Now I'm spending more time because it is clear that Lightroom is doing something that other programs don't understand. Lightroom is clearly writing stuff out. At least sometimes. To add to the confusion, I KNOW that previously to yesterday Lightroom happily wrote out on demand (Metadata/XMP/Export XMP metadata to file), but yesterday I swear I'm not crazy, I couldn't even read such data in Adobe products like Bridge. So I set the default to always write. Sigh, that overwrote every single image in my database (thank goodness I only have about 7000 in now), causing me to have to back them all up last night. But the metadata became visible in Bridge and Photoshop CS2.



This morning, not believing that Lightroom really doesn't write out on demand, I took a few pictures so these would be absolutely pristine, loaded them in, tagged them, turned off Automatically write changes to XMP in preferences and did Metadata/XMP/Export XMP metadata to file. I saw the little progress bars and sure enough, the information is visible in Bridge. But of course not any of the other exif viewing and editing programs. I have no idea if or why the write metadata on demand did not appear to work yesterday. I'm going to forget I saw that.



I am now (again) convinced that I can write metadata out with Lightroom. Whether I can read it later is another question. Lightroom seems to be fairly forgiving as to metadata and will accept what I write in other programs. (Except for dates, which is definitely screwed up and it won't even properly accept some dates written in Elements. But that's a whole 'nother 12 threads in this forum!)



I did one more test. I wrote some IPTC metadata with Bridge into an otherwise pristine camera photo. Lightroom can read it, of course. So can my other metadata reading and editing programs. So Bridge writes IPTC metadata that is readable by other programs.



Depressing and interesting is the fact that when I write additional IPTC information to this image in Lightroom, only Bridge and Photoshop can see the LR written info. The other programs can still see what Bridge wrote, but nothing that LR writes shows up.



When you EXPORT the files, the metadata is written so other programs can read it. ARGHHH!



This is pretty depressing news. I see metadata as very important -- to me the most important thing I want Lightroom to do for me, the reason I bought it. I was previously convinced that it was being written out properly, but all of my previous tests were apparently scanned images and not that thorough even with those. I only resorted to writing metadata outside of LR because of LR's deficiencies. But I failed to recognize the additional Lightroom metadata problems. Actually, I did see other problems earlier but somehow convinced myself that the other programs had a cache or whatever.

Judith,

After reading your quite long post, I'm not sure what's the problem... metadata written by LR can't be recognized with other application.. but you can't reproduce that... then you're convinced you can write metadata with LR, but not sure if you can read that data later (with some other app)....



Well, using ''Export XMP metadata to file'' writes metadata into original jpg file (the file you've imported into LR). Even if you don't use this option, all metadata you've defined in LR, is written into resulting jpg file (by using File/Export...) -unless you check ''Minimize Embedded Metadata''.



I can confirm, that Location tags (Country, State, City) and Keywords tag written by LR are recognised correctly with any app I've tried yet:

BreezeBrowserPro, IrfanView, Exifer, Exiftool, iView MediaPro,...



It would be easier to solve your problems going step-by-step... for example:

-what (meta)data have you defined in LR, but isn't recognised outside LR, by using which tool?

-what metadata (tag) have you defined outside LR, but LR refuses to recognize it?



Greetings,

Bogdan

%26gt;I can confirm, that Location tags (Country, State, City) and Keywords tag written by LR are recognised correctly with any app I've tried yet:

%26gt;BreezeBrowserPro, IrfanView, Exifer, Exiftool, iView MediaPro,...

Interesting. I can't see any IPTC data in IrfanView on the 'original' file, but

can in Lightroom, Bridge and Vista explorer 'photo info'. IrfanView *can* see

the IPTC data in the photo after it's been exported, though. These are JPEG's.

--

Charlie...

http://www.chocphoto.com

Bogdan,



Without exporting, I can't see the IPTC data in most of my files with IrfanView, Exifer, or Abander Photos Control. I can see it with Bridge and Photoshop CS2. With all of these tools I can see information put in images by Bridge or any of the other tools except LR. Only Lightroom's information is invisible.



The exception is my early scan images, which I can't explain why even LR metadata is visible. I remember now that for some of our early scans some IPTC data was put in using the scanning program. That's the only difference I can think of between the scanned images where the LR info shows up and those that it doesn't.



Judy

Charlie,



I use XP but I installed the Microsoft ''photo info'' for Windows Explorer. I can see the information in that too. I also have an Opanda extention to the explorer and it sees nothing.

Judith, it sounds like I'm seeing the same issues you are with metadata.

--

Charlie...

http://www.chocphoto.com

Charlie,



If you use ''Export XMP Metadata to File'', then metadata (location, keywords,..) is written into original file.. but into ''XMP'' section (as stated in menu). AFAIK IrfanView can read only IPTC tags -so you see nothing there.

If you use File/Export, then metadata is written in XMP and IPTC -in this case Irfan recognizes them.



Bogdan

Possibly the two uses of export is the source of the apparent problem. One has to export the metadata to the file in LR before anything else can see it. One can also Export the file, and I use uppercase to mean create a new image file, be it a DNG, TIFF, JPEG or PSD. Then the metadata is also put into the file and can be read.



Does this clear up a bit of it?

Thanks Bogdan, that makes sense as an explanation of what's happening, but not

much sense as a 'feature'. ;-)

--

Charlie...

http://www.chocphoto.com

Bogdan,



I think you have it. I saw the word ''XMP'' used in reference to metadata but I didn't ''believe'' it, so to speak. I thought they only meant for sidecars.



Interesting then that Microsoft's Photo Info plugin for the Explorer sees it.



Those wanting to manipulate the images outside of Lightroom have to remember that they also will not see any changes to the images itself done in Lightroom unless a File / Export is done.

%26gt; Those wanting to manipulate the images outside of Lightroom have to remember that they also will not see any changes to the images itself done in Lightroom unless a File / Export is done.



Except in ACR! [And ACR edits are seen in LR when you run Import xmp data.]

Edited/deleted entire post. Reason: need some further testing before confirmation.



Bogdan

Yes, John. Thanks for the correction. But these products see the metadata as well.

I would like to make some correction to statement I've made on this thread -doesn't change much, but makes difference. Some posts back I wrote:



''Let's assume we used another tool for jpg keywording. In this case LR will recognize keywords only if they have been written into IPTC section. If keywords are in XMP section only (tag Subject used), then LR won't recognize them. If keywords are in both sections, only those from IPTC will be recognized by LR.''



Correct is:



LR will recognize keywords if they are in XMP section (by using Subject tag) -if none keyword is written into IPTC section. If there's even single Keywords entry in IPTC, LR won't recognize/show any keyword tag written in XMP section -only those from IPTC will be shown.



-doesn't change much to first statement, but makes difference. I apology for my mistake.



Greetings,

Bogdan

Phew what a thread.



Ok I think I understand this whole IPTC / XMP thing and I agree it is an annoying problem. I currently use Acdsee Pro and all my IPTC and EXIF modifications are visible in every program I have tried. This is especially useful for my gallery2 uploads which auto labels my photos via the JPG stored IPTC data. I am trialing Lightroom and prefer it to Acdsee except the metadata issue as discussed above.



Basically what I'm after it to achieve the IPTC / EXIF data to be written into the JPG (not the sidecar) without the hassle of exporting every photo after modifying the metadata.



Does anyone know a way to synchronize the xmp sidecar and jpg stored iptc data via a lightroom script or even a external program?

Does anyone think this may become a feature in the future?



Cheers

Jason

Because IPTC standard is older and wide used, Lightroom gives priority to those tags when reading. But, if you execute LR menu:

Metadata/XMP/Export XMP Metadata to File

-LR will embedd appropriate XMP tags into jpg file.

That means, jpg file will contain unchanged IPTC tags and added XMP tags -where XMP tags will contain the same values as IPTC counterparts.



Bogdan

Hi



Thanks for your fast reply, as you say IPTC standard is older and more widely used and this is exactly why I would like to change the ITPC.



Consider this example:

I import a IPTC labeled photo into lightroom and the ITPC data is converted into a XMP tag by lightroom. I then realize the photo was taken in Berlin not Paris as origionally put into the IPTC. I then change the origin tags in lightroom to Berlin. I now hit Metadata/XMP/Export XMP Metadata to File

Obviously now the XMP tag is correct and the IPTC embedded tag is incorrect so you have 2 pieces of conflicting information and depending on what software you use to view metadata you could get 2 results for the location.



As I said I would like to synchronize the 2 tags so there are no conflicts. I know if I export the photo from the file menu it fixes it but this is such a long winded approach and is only good if you remember to do this upon every modification.

You can't do that (your example) from Lightroom, because Lightroom is trying to be only forward compatible.



Of course, there's a solution for your ''problem'' :-)

Downlad ExifTool from http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/



-extract zip content into your windows folder and rename it to exiftool.exe (so you can use it from everywhere). I won't go deeper into how to use ''command line'' applications, for now...



Now type:

exiftool -IPTC:City=Berlin -XMP:City=Berlin image.jpg

...done.



Bogdan

Hi

I actually had looked into this so obviously it looks like the best solution I'm going to get really. What I found was even greater compatibility but running the command:



exiftool ''-iptc:city%26lt;$xmp:city'' ''-iptc:Caption-Abstract%26lt;$xmp:Description'' ''-iptc:Country-PrimaryLocationName%26lt;$xmp:Country'' dir



Basically puts the city, country and description from the XMP into the IPTC. I think I will refine this even further with some if statements to check the item is set and include most of the IPTC categories so I have a standard script I can run on a per directory basis on changes.



Thanks for your help

I had the same problem in Bridge (I'm assuming Bridge and LR are the same here). According to an Adobe support person, this is a bug they are working on. I'm assuming this behavior is also considered a bug in Bridge. Anyway, here's the thread from the Bridge forum along with a workaround (I don't know how the workaround translates to LR if at all.) Hope it helps.




John Olszewski, ''CS3 Bridge keywords - IPTC Core?'' #20, 7 May 2007 5:26 pm



Bart